Facebook Post Crazy Bernie Is Running Again I Wish Him the Best

Russia Is Said to Be Interfering to Aid Sanders in Democratic Primaries

The nominal Democratic front-runner denounced Russia's efforts to attack American democracy.

Credit... Erin Schaff/The New York Times

Published Feb. 21, 2020 Updated Feb. 26, 2020

WASHINGTON — Russia has been trying to intervene in the Democratic primaries to aid Senator Bernie Sanders, according to people familiar with the matter, and Mr. Sanders said on Friday that intelligence officials recently briefed him.

The disclosure came a day before the Nevada caucuses, where Mr. Sanders is a favorite, and followed revelations a day earlier that Moscow was interfering on President Trump's behalf this year, as it did in 2016.

Mr. Sanders denounced Russia in a statement, calling President Vladimir V. Putin an "autocratic thug" and warning Moscow to stay out of the election. Drawing a contrast with Mr. Trump, he said he would stand against any efforts by Russia or another foreign power to interfere in the vote.

"The intelligence community is telling us they are interfering in this campaign right now in 2020," Mr. Sanders separately told reporters in Bakersfield, Calif., where he held a rally on Friday. "And what I say to Mr. Putin: 'If elected president, trust me, you are not going to be interfering in American elections.'"

Mr. Sanders said he was briefed about a month ago. Asked why the disclosure came out now, he said: "I'll let you guess about one day before the Nevada caucus. Why do you think it came out?"

On Friday, the president aggressively disputed that Russia was interfering on his behalf. He called the disclosures a hoax and part of a partisan campaign against him. At a campaign rally in Las Vegas, Mr. Trump suggested that Mr. Putin would prefer Mr. Sanders, "who honeymooned in Moscow." Mr. Sanders and his wife traveled to the Soviet Union in 1988 on a trip that political opponents have called their honeymoon, a term that the couple have jokingly used, too.

Russia's interference on behalf of both Mr. Trump, the dominant force in the Republican Party, and Mr. Sanders, a stalwart of the left, underscores its efforts to sow chaos across the political spectrum. Undermining the democratic system remains at the core of Russia's effort to raise its own stature by weakening the United States, according to current and former officials.

Russia's interference measures and their intensity remain murky, even as intelligence officials sound alarms.

In briefings to House Intelligence Committee members last week and to Mr. Sanders, officials said that Russia was actively interfering in the campaign, and people at the House briefing said intelligence officials said that Russia had a preference for Mr. Trump.

Revelations about the House briefing enraged the president, who complained that Democrats would use Moscow's support for him against him, people familiar with the matter said. Days later, he replaced the acting director of national intelligence, Joseph Maguire, though administration officials have said it was not a direct result of the briefing.

Richard Grenell, the American ambassador to Germany whom Mr. Trump appointed this week to replace Mr. Maguire, asked the agencies under his purview on Friday to provide the raw information and analysis that went into the briefing, people familiar with the matter said.

Mr. Grenell's appointment has drawn criticism from former intelligence officials who question his lack of experience and his record as a partisan ideologue. He immediately began a major personnel reshuffle, forcing out the official acting as the top deputy to the director of national intelligence.

Other officials have hastened planned exits, as Mr. Grenell looks to install his own team.

Listen to 'The Daily': Why Russia Is Rooting for Both Trump and Sanders

The Russian government is again trying to meddle in the presidential election. In doing so, it's working to aid two very different candidates.

transcript

transcript

Listen to 'The Daily': Why Russia Is Rooting for Both Trump and Sanders

Hosted by Michael Barbaro; produced by Eric Krupke and Adizah Eghan, with help from Kelly Prime and Jonathan Wolfe; and edited by Lisa Chow and Lisa Tobin

The Russian government is again trying to meddle in the presidential election. In doing so, it's working to aid two very different candidates.

michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is "The Daily."

[music]

michael barbaro

Today: U.S. intelligence officials have concluded that the Russian government is supporting two very different candidates in the 2020 presidential race. David Sanger on why Russia is rooting for Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders.

It's Wednesday, February 26.

David, tell us about these intelligence briefings.

david sanger

Well, the first one, and in some ways the most interesting one, is shrouded in a lot of mystery. We know that about a month ago, the F.B.I. went to Bernie Sanders.

michael barbaro

Mm-hmm.

david sanger

The F.B.I. frequently comes around to give general warnings to all the candidates, but that's not what this was all about. This was about a very specific finding. And their message was, we have reason to believe that the Russians, through their own calculus, have determined that you're their favorite candidate among the Democrats in the primary.

michael barbaro

Hmm.

david sanger

And that they may well already be intervening on your behalf.

michael barbaro

And David, what was Sanders's reaction, as both a senator and a presidential candidate, to this piece of information?

david sanger

The only reaction that we know about, Michael, is that he decided to keep it secret. He hasn't said very much about what he thought about it. He just decided to say nothing about it, which itself is a really interesting choice.

michael barbaro

What do you mean?

david sanger

Well, he said that because it was classified, and he doesn't talk about classified briefings, he just stayed silent. But there are lots of political reasons for him to stay silent as well.

michael barbaro

Like what?

david sanger

He doesn't want to appear or be portrayed by President Trump as Russia's favorite or Russia's dupe in the election. If you're Bernie Sanders and you're thinking ahead to the general election, you only want one Russian puppet to be in this election, and you want it to be Donald Trump. So he knew right away that Trump would use this as an effort to try to equalize what the Russians were doing on behalf of President Trump in 2016 —

michael barbaro

Gotcha.

david sanger

— and what we think they will be doing with what they're doing with Bernie Sanders. Because if the Russians are backing both of them, it's like the Russians are backing neither of them.

michael barbaro

OK, so that's intelligence briefing number one. What about the second one?

david sanger

Well, the second one is bigger, a lot more formal, and we know a lot more about it. It was February 13.

archived recording (erin burnett)

[MUSIC]: And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett. We are live from Las Vegas where, in less than an hour, our Democratic presidential town halls will begin. And we have more on that in just a moment. But first, the breaking news.

david sanger

And the Director of National Intelligence Office, Shelby Pierson, has the unenviable job of being the mission manager for election interference for the Director of National Intelligence, goes in to brief the House Intelligence Committee.

michael barbaro

Hmm.

david sanger

And so the first thing she says is: There is Russian interference underway. The second thing she says is: The Russians had and still have a preference for Donald Trump as president. So unlike the Sanders briefing, this one does leak.

archived recording 1

This is not a four-year-ago flashback, folks. This is 2020.

archived recording 2

Well, Democrats are rekindling an old flame — Russia collusion. Yes.

archived recording 3

I mean, this is so idiotic. And you notice how when they win elections, the Russians didn't do anything?

archived recording 4

Mm.

archived recording 5

So —

david sanger

And a few days after that leaks out, we learn about the Sanders briefing a month before. And of course, as soon as these leak, everyone's furious.

archived recording

And if this came out a month ago, how do you think it came out now, if you had the briefing a month ago?

archived recording (bernie sanders)

I'll let you guess about one day before the Iowa — Nevada caucus. Why do you think it came out? It was The Washington Post? Good friends.

david sanger

Sanders is furious that the news of his briefing came out just before the Nevada caucuses.

michael barbaro

Right.

david sanger

And blames, among others, corporate media. Because The Washington Post had, I think, first broken this story. President Trump is furious that it's back in the ether again that the Russians are involved in the election and behind him.

archived recording (donald trump)

Here we go again. Did you see it? This story. Aren't people bored?

david sanger

And so at a rally in Las Vegas, he says, this is all fabrication. It's all coming from the Democrats.

archived recording (donald trump)

I was told that was happening. I was told a week ago. They said, you know, they're trying to start a rumor. It's disinformation. That's the only thing they're good at. They're not good at anything else. They get nothing done — Do Nothing Democrats.

david sanger

No, actually, it was coming from his own Office of the Director of National Intelligence, all of whom work for him.

archived recording (donald trump)

These people are crazy!

michael barbaro

So regardless of how this became public — and it seems like both Sanders and Trump are very unhappy that it did become public — it is public now that Russia is supportive of both President Trump and Bernie Sanders. So how did the intelligence community come to that conclusion? What are they seeing out there?

david sanger

Well, we don't know exactly how they came to it, because this is wrapped up in their sources and methods — the one thing that they protect more than anything.

michael barbaro

Mm-hmm.

david sanger

We think they have humans sources inside Russia. They certainly did in 2016, a unique human source who had access to the Kremlin. They certainly have lines into Russian networks. That's what the National Security Agency does. And finally, they get to see some of the product as it shows up on Facebook or Reddit or something like that.

michael barbaro

Mm-hmm.

david sanger

And here, the differences from 2016 are really fascinating.

michael barbaro

Like what?

david sanger

Well, in 2016, you'll remember that there were Russians who were posing as Americans and putting out Facebook ads or going into Facebook posts. They got booted off for inauthentic behavior — they weren't really Americans. So what are they doing now? They're putting much of the same kind of propaganda and false charges on forums like Reddit, hoping that they will get picked up by real Facebook users, who are real Americans, and will be repeated on their posts. And of course, Facebook can't throw them off, because they're real Americans expressing their political views. They're protected by First Amendment rights. And it would be pretty unseemly if Facebook began tossing off Americans saying, oh, you heard that from a Russian bot.

michael barbaro

Hmm.

david sanger

In the Cold War, the Soviets called these people "useful idiots" because they unintentionally picked up a Russian theme, a piece of disinformation, and repeated it until it became organic.

michael barbaro

Right.

david sanger

In the election, they might call them "useful partisans," because they're going to pluck this out of the political ether, repeat it on cable television, presumably in support of Senator Sanders or President Trump, or maybe someone else who emerges.

michael barbaro

So David, how do you make sense of the fact that Russia is trying to help the two candidates in the race who are about as ideologically far apart as imaginable — Trump, Sanders — at the same time?

david sanger

Well, Michael, I've been trying to puzzle this out, because at first, it didn't seem to make any sense to me. And then, the more interviewing I did with more experts that I trust, they all said, you know, David, actually, it makes perfect sense.

[music]

And it makes perfect sense for three reasons. So the first one is that both these candidates are at the outer extremes of their own parties. Not the far extreme, but they attract really partisan supporters. And the best way to create chaos is to have two polarized groups of political supporters going after each other.

michael barbaro

Mm.

david sanger

You know, the Trump supporters and the Sanders supporters, they don't leave a whole lot of space in the middle. And if you're the Russians, that's perfect. It's the equivalent of creating a drought in the forest, just before you toss in the match. Remember, the Russians don't go out and create the conditions. All they do is go out and exploit the conditions.

michael barbaro

Help me understand what the exploitation of a polarized Sanders and Trump electorate looks like.

david sanger

Well, you could take any of a number of issues that are hot-button social issues and use that to further divide Americans.

archived recording (donald trump)

We give hundreds of millions of dollars. You know what they give to us? Nothing. Nothing. They give us nothing.

archived recording

Criminals!

david sanger

You can use immigration, right? On which they differ dramatically.

archived recording (bernie sanders)

Day one, we will rescind all of Trump's hateful and racist immigration executive orders. [APPLAUSE]

david sanger

You can use Medicare for All, on which they differ dramatically. You could use the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, on which they differ dramatically. So —

michael barbaro

And just kind of pump up those issues on social media, on your Reddit page, and hope it gets picked up on Facebook. And just generally make Americans angry at each other over it?

david sanger

Have the country screaming at each other.

archived recording 1

Bottom line is Donald Trump is dangerous and toxic for this country.

archived recording 2

For many reasons, I think Bernie Sanders is a dangerous man, but the thing that I thought — I do. I mean, I think he's a very dangerous man.

archived recording 3

This is someone who is not stable. And I've been saying it from the beginning, and I will continue to say it until somebody looks into his mental stability.

archived recording 4

The socialist wing has completely taken over and is now in control, where the moderate voices no longer matter at this point in the race.

michael barbaro

And why is chaos good for Russia? I can tell why it's bad for us.

david sanger

It makes the United States look like a place that can't get its act together. It helps lead to charges of election interference and election irregularities that bring American elections down to the level of Russian elections.

michael barbaro

Hmm.

david sanger

It makes democracy look like a chaotic form of governance that can't really be trusted to make progress.

[music]

Best of all, you're weakening the United States, keeping it consumed in some domestic furor, rather than thinking about pushing back against the Russians in Syria, or elsewhere in the Middle East, or in Crimea, or coming to the support of your allies in NATO.

michael barbaro

We'll be right back.

OK. So that's theory number one, which kind of seems to see both of these candidates as co-equals in the creation of a chaotic American political life.

david sanger

That's right.

michael barbaro

What is theory number two for why Russia would be rooting for both Trump and Sanders?

david sanger

Well, theory number two is truly cynical, Michael. It's that the Russians really do favor Trump, and they think that Bernie Sanders is the most beatable Democrat.

michael barbaro

Hmm.

david sanger

Now, they may be wrong about that. There's lots of polling that suggest he could win. But the Russians's calculus at this moment may be that if you want to keep Donald Trump in office, Bernie Sanders is the best candidate to go do that.

michael barbaro

Gotcha.

david sanger

Now, that then raises the question, why would they continue to support Trump? And I think the answer to that is that Donald Trump is the only member of the Trump administration who doesn't sign on to the anti-Russian cast of American policy.

[music]

Official policy is, we push back on the Russians from Ukraine to the Middle East and so forth. Donald Trump doesn't want to hear any of that.

archived recording (donald trump)

I think that we would have a chance to have a very good relationship with Russia and a very good chance — a very good relationship with President Putin. I would hope —

michael barbaro

Putin, obviously, likes that.

david sanger

That's right. Official policy is we continue sanctions on the Russians.

archived recording (donald trump)

A lot of people say having Russia — which is a power — having them inside the room is better than having them outside the room. By the way, there were numerous people during the G7 that felt that way. And we didn't take a vote or anything, but we did discuss it. My inclination is to say, yes, they should be in.

david sanger

Donald Trump's been talking to the French about letting Russia back into the G8, the group of eight countries, and beginning to lift sanctions. Official policy is that we keep sanctions on as long as the Russians continue to annex Crimea.

archived recording (donald trump)

You know, the people of Crimea, from what I've heard, would rather be with Russia than where they were. And you have to look at that also.

david sanger

Donald Trump's view is, why do we care about Crimea anyway? Why don't the other neighbors care about that? So they have all kinds of reasons to believe that Donald Trump in the second term would be a continuation of the Donald Trump in the first term, who wasn't going to give them a hard time about their territorial or nuclear ambitions.

michael barbaro

OK, that's the Trump side of this. What makes the Russians convinced that Sanders is the most beatable Democrat? Because as you said, that's not exactly what the polling suggests.

david sanger

It isn't what the polling suggests, and it's an interesting question why they believe that. Remember, the Russians didn't think Donald Trump was going to win early in the last presidential cycle and really only came to supporting him in an active way in the very last months of the campaign. So they may not know right now any more than we know. Why would they know?

michael barbaro

Mm-hmm.

archived recording (bernie sanders)

You know, when Fidel Castro came into office, you know what he did? He had a massive literacy program. Is that a bad thing?

david sanger

But they look at Bernie Sanders, and they see somebody who talks in ways that other American politicians rarely do. How many other American politicians have come out and said admiring things about Fidel Castro?

michael barbaro

Mm.

archived recording (bernie sanders)

You know what? I think teaching people to read and write is a good thing.

david sanger

How many other American candidates have proudly called themselves democratic socialists? So they think that all of these things make Sanders vulnerable to the charge from President Trump that Sanders is actually the Russian-loving socialist in the race.

michael barbaro

OK, so what is the third explanation for why Russia would support both candidates?

david sanger

Well, the third explanation is life is uncertain, and they could live with Bernie Sanders.

michael barbaro

Hmm.

david sanger

And why?

archived recording (bernie sanders)

Today, we are preparing to send soldiers to Afghanistan who were not even born on September 11, 2001.

david sanger

Because, like Donald Trump, he's got a real aversion to interventions around the world.

archived recording (bernie sanders)

We have got to stop endless wars. We have got to cut military spending.

david sanger

So that you can pay for Medicare for All and other social programs.

michael barbaro

So the thinking is that Russia would be quite happy, maybe even elated, with four more years of Donald Trump. But if they're going to have to live with a Democratic president, they're perfectly fine with Bernie Sanders.

david sanger

Especially because the Democrats have become the party of anti-Russia sentiment.

michael barbaro

Hmm.

david sanger

Right? It's almost a flip from what we thought about in the post-Cold War era where the Democrats were all about integrating Russia into the world community, making them part of the G8, coming up with economic packages, turning them into a European nation. Remember all that?

michael barbaro

Mm-hmm.

david sanger

You haven't heard a word of that from any of the Democrats now except Sanders. And so you're now seeing Bernie Sanders just in the past few days —

archived recording (bernie sanders)

And what I say to Mr. Putin — if elected president, trust me, you are not going to be interfering in American elections.

archived recording

Senator —

david sanger

— begin to try to sound a bit tougher in his international relations views, precisely because he recognizes this is a big vulnerability.

archived recording (bernie sanders)

Mr. Putin is a thug. He is an autocrat. He may be a friend of Donald Trump's. He's not a friend of mine. Let me tell you —

david sanger

So right now, we still don't have the evidence. Remember, in the 2016 election, it wasn't until 2017 — really, after Donald Trump was about to be inaugurated — that we got a sense of the scope of the Russian effort.

michael barbaro

Mm.

david sanger

What we do know is that Bernie Sanders now has a Russia problem.

michael barbaro

Mm.

david sanger

And that problem, if anything, is probably going to drive him to sound more hostile to Moscow than he naturally would be or he has been in the past.

michael barbaro

And how does that serve Russia?

david sanger

I'm not sure it does. Because once influence operations are exposed, it can drive the intended target — in this case, Bernie Sanders and his supporters — to the opposite corner.

michael barbaro

Mm-hmm.

david sanger

So you know, Donald Trump today is the last politician in America who could actually get behind lifting sanctions against Russia, because everybody would say, you're in Putin's pocket. And they run the risk of driving Bernie Sanders from the candidate who wanted to go talk to the Russians, to the candidate who could never talk to the Russians.

michael barbaro

Hmm.

[music]

Thank you, David.

david sanger

Thank you.

archived recording (bernie sanders)

This is —

archived recording

Mayor Buttigieg, we want to bring you into this conversation. Why would the Russians want to be working on behalf of Bernie Sanders?

michael barbaro

During Tuesday night's Democratic debate in South Carolina, candidates repeatedly invoked Russia's support for Trump and Sanders, with Mayor Pete Buttigieg saying that Russia favored them because they represent political extremes.

archived recording (pete buttigieg)

I'll tell you what the Russians want. They don't have a political party. They want chaos. And chaos is what is coming our way. I mean, look, if you think the last four years has been chaotic, divisive, toxic, exhausting, imagine spending the better part of 2020 with Bernie Sanders versus Donald Trump. Think about what that will be like for this country.

michael barbaro

At one point, Mike Bloomberg turned to Sanders and declared that the reason Russia supported Sanders was because its government believed that Sanders would lose to Trump.

archived recording (michael bloomberg)

Vladimir Putin thinks that Donald Trump should be president of the United States. And that's why Russia is helping you get elected, so you'll lose to him.

archived recording (bernie sanders)

Oh, Mr. Bloomberg!

michael barbaro

Sanders, in response, denounced Russia's efforts to meddle in the election.

archived recording (bernie sanders)

And let me tell Mr. Putin, who interfered in the 2016 election, trying to bring Americans against Americans — hey, Mr. Putin, if I'm president of the United States, trust me, you're not gonna interfere in any more American elections.

michael barbaro

For highlights and analysis of that debate, listen to this morning's episode of "The Latest." You can find it on the "Daily" Feed or by searching for "The Latest" wherever you listen. We'll be right back.

[music]

michael barbaro

Here's what else you need to know today.

archived recording (anne schuchat)

Now, it's not so much a question of if this will happen anymore, but rather more a question of exactly when this will happen and how many people in this country will become infected.

michael barbaro

On Tuesday, health officials warned that the coronavirus will almost certainly begin spreading across the United States and that Americans should begin preparations now. During a news conference, Doctor Anne Schuchat of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said that an American outbreak might require a wide range of actions, from closing schools to asking employees to work from home.

archived recording (anne schuchat)

We will be transparent with the public about these measures and the potential that these tools will be necessary. There is literally a playbook for the use of these tools.

michael barbaro

As of Tuesday night, the U.S. had 57 confirmed cases of the virus, all of whom are in isolation in hospitals.

That's it for "The Daily." I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.

The House briefing was a supposed to be a repeat of an unremarkable classified session with the Senate Intelligence Committee in January and to inform lawmakers about a broad range of election threats, not just Russian interference. But lawmakers focused on the disclosures about Russia's support for Mr. Trump and challenged the briefer, Shelby Pierson, the nation's election security czar.

Intelligence officials disputed that Ms. Pierson said that Russia was actively aiding the re-election of the president. She did say Russia was seeking to influence American elections, including the primaries.

But people who heard the briefing said that the intelligence officers presenting the material said, in response to questions from lawmakers, that Russia was trying to get Mr. Trump re-elected.

Republicans have disputed that Russia supports Mr. Trump, insisting that Mr. Putin simply wants to broadly spread chaos and undermine the democratic system. They have also argued that Mr. Sanders's gestures of peace toward the Soviet Union at the end of the Cold War might make him appealing to Mr. Putin.

But some current and former officials expressed doubt that Russian officials think that Mr. Sanders has a hidden affinity for Moscow. Instead, they said that a Russian campaign to support Mr. Sanders might ultimately be aimed at aiding Mr. Trump. Moscow could potentially consider Mr. Sanders a weaker general election opponent for the president than a more moderate Democratic nominee, according to two people familiar with the matter.

The Washington Post first reported the briefing of the Sanders campaign. The campaign sought to pin the blame for the disclosure on the Trump administration, suggesting it was retribution for critical remarks Mr. Sanders had made about Mr. Grenell in 2018.

Russia also worked to support — or at least not harm — Mr. Sanders in 2016. Operatives at a Russian intelligence-backed troll factory were instructed to avoid attacking Mr. Sanders or Mr. Trump, according to the report by the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, and an indictment he secured of 13 Russians working on the operation.

Both the indictment and Mr. Mueller's report quoted internal documents from the Internet Research Agency ordering operatives to attack Hillary Clinton's campaign. "Use any opportunity to criticize Hillary and the rest except for Sanders and Trump — we support them," the document said.

Russian operatives used the troll factory in 2016 to pose on social media as Americans and sow divisions among already divisive issues like immigration, religion and race. It was one part of the Kremlin's multipronged attack on the election that also included hackings of Democratic emails, payments to unsuspecting Americans to stage pro-Trump rallies in battleground states and at least one scouting trip to the United States in 2014.

Mr. Sanders said the Russians were again trying to interfere in the race. Some "ugly stuff on the internet" had been attributed to his campaign that could be coming from falsified accounts, he said.

His online army of supporters is both coveted by his rivals and a source of complaints because of what they say is abusive behavior online. During the Democratic debate on Wednesday in Las Vegas, Mr. Sanders suggested that Russian trolls may be responsible for the some of the worst of the postings.

"All of us remember 2016, and what we remember is efforts by Russians and others to try to interfere in our election and divide us up," he said. "I'm not saying that's happening, but it would not shock me."

Julian E. Barnes reported from Washington, and Sydney Ember from Las Vegas. Katie Rogers contributed reporting from Las Vegas, and Adam Goldman and Zach Montague from Washington.

bertlesandoing.blogspot.com

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/21/us/politics/bernie-sanders-russia.html

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